It's too long otherwise.
2002-May-20, Monday 11:46 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ssurgulKyle,
(This post is written when I'm still quite frustrated, angry and annoyed, so it's at least partially a vent.)
First, let me try and explain the situation with people like Banner. I don't mind if people have to take a few times to explain something, if the other person clearly isn't 'getting it'. But, people like Banner tend to repeat the same thing, over and over, and over in conversation, both to continue to hear themselves, and to continue to poll/fish for responses they 'want' to hear. It thus has little to do with communication, and more typically to do with insecurity. While I can listen, I really don't want to devote time to listening to drivel like that. Nor do I feel the need to be repeatedly drilled into for a point that is both minor and long-term inconsequential. My mom did it to me, and you can guess where that's led.
As to the situation with your drug use. I fully understand your reasoning for having done so. My concern stems more toward a high-level concept I read in The Battles of the Autistic Thinker, regarding needing to start with a clean slate. All too often, I've watched you completely scrub entire reasoning sets and experiences solely because of one setback, even a minor one, with the intention of simply having to start all over and explore everything once again. And, here again, I see you doing precisely that. You had accepted that many of your personal habits from before were 'bad'. You had done without drugs for a long while. You had become addicted to Vicoden, and I'd hoped that would have shown you precisely what it is to live at the mercy of a chemical substance. And it honestly seems as though little of the previous experience has 'stuck' with you here. Granted, this could well be a case of statements before having changed utterly, and no corrective information being given on them, which then leads to inconsistency and hypocrisy, which are, to me, very bad. You'd said previously that I made a habit of assuming I know everything and then judging accordingly. I had tried to correct you on that by clarifying that I will base my reactions on what I see and what I'm told. I will ask when things are not clear. But, with you, it seems you want me to ask about each and every action, because you seem to be trying to distance yourself from any sort of long-term status or situation. More and more, it's become 'this me, right now; then has totally changed'. While I can appreciate revelation changing certain aspects, or perhaps even your whole world view, it's definitely not 'normal' to be doing it with the frequency you're doing it. And it makes it nearly impossible to try and keep up with any of your changing moods/patterns/behaviors, which makes it difficult to want to even try.
And, yes, this has led me to be greatly frustrated, annoyed, and fed up with you. I won't lie. I'd told you I would be cleaning/packing/working all day Sunday. That was so you would make the effort to be here during the day when these things were happening. But, you didn't show until after 6. Thus putting off what we were supposed to be doing, from either perspective, until much later in the night. My billing was not done; I was planning on doing it last night, after we'd talked and gotten more cleaning done. But, that wasn't to be. Thus, I had to finish my billing this morning. Hopefully there will be enough time to get it processed for month end, so I can actually recoup some money. But, this goes right back to another reason I really disliked it when, and still do really, you stayed out all night and partied, whether there was alcohol/drugs/sex involved or not. Every time the next day or two was a complete waste. And that pattern held true this time as well. While I did get cleaning and other things done, the 'important' thing didn't get done because I knew I needed to talk to you. You were highest on my priority list, even though I was thoroughly pissed off with you. It certainly didn't make me feel like a priority at all to be hanging around through the day and early evening, waiting for you to show up.
Finally, I am also thoroughly fed up with this attitude you've hit me with three times now. 2 in person, with 2 in LJ. One of these is an overlap whereby you stated it in person, and then restated it precisely in LJ, so I count that as one. I'm getting sick and tired of being directly accused of looking down on you because you have a single thought that I don't sanction. I don't know who or what put that idea into your head, but if that's the way I'm to be treated, then I'll just stop this shit now, for good. You having ideas is just fine. You having your own plan is just fine. I will always take exception, and always point out diametric opposites in anyone who comes to me for ideas/thoughts/experiences/teachings/whatevers and they present me with those sorts of inconsistencies. You're no different than anyone else on that score, to me. I strongly encourage you to bear that in mind. If your arguments won't hold up because of the past, and you're not saying 'Yes, but I've changed my mind since then, and here's why', at least to yourself, then are the thoughts and ideas worth keeping? To me, no. But then, I'm typically more thorough in thought than most.
(This post is written when I'm still quite frustrated, angry and annoyed, so it's at least partially a vent.)
First, let me try and explain the situation with people like Banner. I don't mind if people have to take a few times to explain something, if the other person clearly isn't 'getting it'. But, people like Banner tend to repeat the same thing, over and over, and over in conversation, both to continue to hear themselves, and to continue to poll/fish for responses they 'want' to hear. It thus has little to do with communication, and more typically to do with insecurity. While I can listen, I really don't want to devote time to listening to drivel like that. Nor do I feel the need to be repeatedly drilled into for a point that is both minor and long-term inconsequential. My mom did it to me, and you can guess where that's led.
As to the situation with your drug use. I fully understand your reasoning for having done so. My concern stems more toward a high-level concept I read in The Battles of the Autistic Thinker, regarding needing to start with a clean slate. All too often, I've watched you completely scrub entire reasoning sets and experiences solely because of one setback, even a minor one, with the intention of simply having to start all over and explore everything once again. And, here again, I see you doing precisely that. You had accepted that many of your personal habits from before were 'bad'. You had done without drugs for a long while. You had become addicted to Vicoden, and I'd hoped that would have shown you precisely what it is to live at the mercy of a chemical substance. And it honestly seems as though little of the previous experience has 'stuck' with you here. Granted, this could well be a case of statements before having changed utterly, and no corrective information being given on them, which then leads to inconsistency and hypocrisy, which are, to me, very bad. You'd said previously that I made a habit of assuming I know everything and then judging accordingly. I had tried to correct you on that by clarifying that I will base my reactions on what I see and what I'm told. I will ask when things are not clear. But, with you, it seems you want me to ask about each and every action, because you seem to be trying to distance yourself from any sort of long-term status or situation. More and more, it's become 'this me, right now; then has totally changed'. While I can appreciate revelation changing certain aspects, or perhaps even your whole world view, it's definitely not 'normal' to be doing it with the frequency you're doing it. And it makes it nearly impossible to try and keep up with any of your changing moods/patterns/behaviors, which makes it difficult to want to even try.
And, yes, this has led me to be greatly frustrated, annoyed, and fed up with you. I won't lie. I'd told you I would be cleaning/packing/working all day Sunday. That was so you would make the effort to be here during the day when these things were happening. But, you didn't show until after 6. Thus putting off what we were supposed to be doing, from either perspective, until much later in the night. My billing was not done; I was planning on doing it last night, after we'd talked and gotten more cleaning done. But, that wasn't to be. Thus, I had to finish my billing this morning. Hopefully there will be enough time to get it processed for month end, so I can actually recoup some money. But, this goes right back to another reason I really disliked it when, and still do really, you stayed out all night and partied, whether there was alcohol/drugs/sex involved or not. Every time the next day or two was a complete waste. And that pattern held true this time as well. While I did get cleaning and other things done, the 'important' thing didn't get done because I knew I needed to talk to you. You were highest on my priority list, even though I was thoroughly pissed off with you. It certainly didn't make me feel like a priority at all to be hanging around through the day and early evening, waiting for you to show up.
Finally, I am also thoroughly fed up with this attitude you've hit me with three times now. 2 in person, with 2 in LJ. One of these is an overlap whereby you stated it in person, and then restated it precisely in LJ, so I count that as one. I'm getting sick and tired of being directly accused of looking down on you because you have a single thought that I don't sanction. I don't know who or what put that idea into your head, but if that's the way I'm to be treated, then I'll just stop this shit now, for good. You having ideas is just fine. You having your own plan is just fine. I will always take exception, and always point out diametric opposites in anyone who comes to me for ideas/thoughts/experiences/teachings/whatevers and they present me with those sorts of inconsistencies. You're no different than anyone else on that score, to me. I strongly encourage you to bear that in mind. If your arguments won't hold up because of the past, and you're not saying 'Yes, but I've changed my mind since then, and here's why', at least to yourself, then are the thoughts and ideas worth keeping? To me, no. But then, I'm typically more thorough in thought than most.
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Hmm...
on 2002-May-21, Tuesday 02:06 pm (UTC)Okay, okay, so it sounds like person saying that is being a toady. But it's something that I had to learn how to say to others when they misunderstood me, because they -always- would misunderstand me, and get angry with me, and I did have to learn to calm them down.
And now I'm stuck with having to calm you down when you're angry, so that you will be able to listen to what I have to say... when you don't take any steps to calm me down when I get angry, so that I would be able to listen to what you have to say.
More than anything else, people want to know that their viewpoint is valid. When their viewpoint is completely invalidated, they get extremely frustrated and closed-off -- and I've felt, for a very long time, that my viewpoints, ideas, ideals, and what have you have been completely invalidated.
I want an apology. I want an honest statement that you never intended to make me feel the way that I feel now. Or, I want an honest statement that you -did- intend to make me feel the way that I feel now. Because, again, I feel like I'm stretching myself out twice to five times as much as you are... and I do not believe that that is fair. I want you to tell me the truth, I want you to tell the truth unadulterated, and I want you to realize that your agenda is driving me away -- so, if you do want me, you need to drop it. And if you keep it, you won't have me.
Line in the sand time, Marcus. Cuz I'm hurting as much as you are -- and I'm still doing everything in my goddamned power to grow close to you, and I'm truly feeling like I'm wasting my time.
Re: ...
on 2002-May-21, Tuesday 05:55 pm (UTC)Again, I never intended you to feel that your viewpoints are invalidated. I apologize, again, for that. But, if you're feeling something else from feeling that your viewpoints are completely invalidated, you'll need to tell me.
Which agenda is this that I need to drop?
As to my being angry, I was only partially angry still with you. Work was an enormous pile of shit, and there wasn't a clear day on the horizon. Today was only slightly better. You said you wanted information, clear and uncut, unmodified. Well, last night's response was it. It was how I felt, right then, right there. I made about 7 mods to the entire entry, and all those were to change a word here or there, and add a preposition to clarify something. This, too, is truth. I've made no changes to this point (.) here.
And, finally, about taking steps to calm me down when I've taken none to calm you down. Normally I find it's been best to let the anger go, and swell and burn itself out. Then, the emotion is spent, and things can resume to their level. With no anger response in place, because it's used up, then the odds of listening are much greater. Deflecting the anger only lets it sit in the listener, just waiting and waiting until another window opens and it can spill out through that. Your ventings in the LJ I normally take as your means of getting your anger out. Yes, I would prefer they come to me, but I've abdicated my right to them directly now, by asking to be removed from that list. And, when they were coming to me, I was taking my time with answers because answering in anger does very little to help the situation. You said it yourself: when we're attacked, the initial response is to strike back at the attacker. When responding in anger to anger, it's normally quite easy to keep that cycle going far longer than it should. Which is what I think is happening here.
Again (I'm not writing this in anger, this is my feeling of what I'm perceiving), it feels as though you're expecting something from me that you're not affording me in return. You need the space and room to vent. You want me to be very flexible in dealing with your moods for when they change they may have changed tremendously. Yet when I do these things, I'm not afforded that space at all. I made it clear that the post last night was at least partially a vent, though most of it turned out to be. But it was also my feeling, uncut and unadulterated. I didn't make that clear in the post, but now you know. I've been trying to reach out to you here, and accomodate your needs and wants. Don't assume that I haven't been reaching out too.
Re: ...
on 2002-May-21, Tuesday 10:18 pm (UTC)...but on the flip side, there are some things that (apparently) I want, that you don't perceive me wanting. I've been doing some thinking (today was quite anger-filled, and I wrote more than a few things in anger that I later hid so that I can re-think them before exposing you to them), and it occurred to me that my actions have unconsciously been multiple-apology -- just to ensure that the person that I'm apologizing to understands that I really, truly am sorry. (The latest example of this was when I hurt Doug's feelings -- I recognized it, I apologized to him, I did what I had accepted responsibility for doing to make him feel as though I viewed him as a worthwhile person, and then, two days later, apologized again.)
I got out of the habit of saying "I'm sorry" to you -- because you wouldn't believe it, you wouldn't understand why I kept berating myself over the same incident that you'd already told me that you'd forgiven me for, you wouldn't recognize what I was trying to do by what I was saying.
And I don't know why, but I tend to view "I'm sorry" said only once as being the mark of an expression of regret shown only under duress -- i.e., not an expression of regret, but rather an expression of fear.
-Kyle
Re: ...
on 2002-May-21, Tuesday 11:39 pm (UTC)I'm only communicating my feelings here, and they're not angry toward you. Today was another angry day, but mostly because of work, and then DSLi.
For me, an apology can certainly take the role you spell out there. Fear rather than regret with intent to change. But, normally, I can tell the difference. And, if it's a heartfelt apology, I accept the first one for what it is: an apology and expression of regret. But, I also have the expectation on others, you being no different than anyone else here, that if you're truly sorry for something, then you'll be taking steps to remedy those items that are causing the issue. Whether that be gearing certain behaviors/words to the one being offended, or shutting up completely regarding topic X that causes issue, or anything all the way up to simply walking away from someone because you are certain that there is absolutely no way to resolve the issue and it's going to be a barrier to any further communication with them at all. In the latter case, I tried to do that with the one who was a habitual offendee, and took something I said completely wrong and went completely off the handle.
The key is taking steps to remedy the situation, to me. Actions following the words. Even if they're subtle actions that need to be spelled out from time to time. In some instances (I can't say many, most or any other modifier there as I can't recall more than a few instances directly and a couple more indirectly), though, I spelled out why my actions were what they were and how I'd tried to modify my own behavior in response to that which I was apologetic for. But again, here, I'm getting the impression that my expectations were incompatible with your own.
Now that you've stated it, I understand what you're trying to do. But, to be honest, that really won't change my expectations for anyone save possibly for you. As you'd said previously, it does make it sound more like someone is todying and ingratiating themselves. Which, as I've explained, all too easily becomes an excuse.
I have to ask here, though, what these 'some things that (apparently) I want, that you don't perceive me wanting' are. I realize you're thinking them through, but is this further apology? Or is this some other goal-set you have?
Re: ...
on 2002-May-22, Wednesday 12:21 am (UTC)You have an expectation that if a behavior is honestly wrong, the person will make an honest, heartfelt attempt to change the behavior in question. That's well and good -- but it's been my experience (with myself, and with others) that there are some things that we honestly -cannot- change. (This may be because it's a personality quirk that we've honestly attempted to get rid of/modify, or, in the case of most of the people that I've dealt with over the years, there are so many other things wrong of a higher priority that it honestly -would- be the straw that broke the camel's back, broke their mind and broke themselves back down to ground zero.)
In my case, a severe lack of self-esteem, combined with failures to achieve what I wanted to achieve, and an unending seige of my abilities to improve my self-esteem, led me to an entrenched, defensive position where I couldn't even afford to try, to keep myself from getting so down on myself that I would have viewed myself as having less than zero worth, and treating myself accordingly. (All I had to hold onto was the belief that you had chosen me, therefore I must have -some- worth. And in the face of relentless psychic pounding, I couldn't afford to lose that, like I'd lost my own ability to see my own worth.) [note: the word 'psychic' refers to psyche, not any kind of ESP-alike concept.]
In a lot of ways, it was your constant changing of the rules, your constant changing of the tactics you were using (especially without asking me what I was seeing and feeling) that made me lose most of my faith in myself, and in the situation as a whole. You kept shifting the sands under me, changing the rules, changing how you interacted with me (sometimes as a full adult, sometimes as a petulant child, often in some strange way that I have no analogue for describing) so often that I couldn't see anything solid in the world. You never told me when you were changing the rules -- if you did tell me, once, it was only once, and I was never asked how I was handling it -- you assumed, as you always did, that because it didn't work, it was a mechanism that was inherently flawed in dealing with me.
gah. that last paragraph was more like a vent than a useful paragraph. I'm sorry -- I'll pick this up in the morning, when I'm more able to keep my words on-track.
-Kyle
Time, time, time... see what's become of me...
on 2002-May-21, Tuesday 02:07 pm (UTC)